Curse

Kusandaa · May 09, 2008, 05:40 PM // 17:40

First, I'm dead tired of hearing the term "PvE scrub". Such comments give the PvP community a bad image and yet they expect to be loved and praised? Yeah right. They make it sound like it applies to the whole PvE-only community while it doesn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

PvErs cannot accept the fact that PvP takes more skill, and therefore, call the competitive players "Elitist" to give them a bad image.

And +1.

PvP takes more skills, yes. I agree. (See, I agree!)

But PvE takes skills to be done effectively as well. See how bad a team does when no one listens or even cares for the current map, and see what a good PvE team is. They'll plow through the mobs.

To me, if you're in my PvE team and you cannot play your build correctly, or your class, or whatever... you could be R9 Hero and I wouldn't give a ****. I can tell you this because I've had it happen; some guy who bragged and bragged of being an awesome R9 player overextended and blew up at the monk for not healing him (was a Tombs run), that he was still an awesome player and the rest of the team sucked before raging. I was later PMed and insulted.

Well tell you what. If you behave like this, I'm sorry, but no matter what your rank is, no matter how long you've been playing, TO ME, in PVE (what we're currently doing!)... you're pretty awful.

Therefore I don't give a **** about your title. SHOW ME YOUR SKILL instead of bragging about it. It's your current performance that matters the most, IMHO.

Same applies to PvP... I'm not very good at it. But when I do it, I try. I give my best, but I make mistakes. I'd need more practice, let's face it. But I'm not about to blame the others when I'm at fault though, it's just common sense.

EDIT: The worse is that such examples pretty much sums up my encounter with PvPers. But then again, ask me for PvEers example of behaving the same and I'll have a ton too. I think average players in both parties simply - in GW in general - lack common sense.

Longasc · May 09, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

This animosity does not exist nearly as much in other games who have PvE and PvP as in GW.

PvP was expected to become the endgame, and ANet zealously tried to convert PvE players to become PvPers.

However, they did not.

Most new "content" was given to PvE, skill balances were dictated by PvP. This increased a rift that not necessarily has to exist at all.

Some ANet people once said the players created it, that ANet was meant to be a game for everyone.
Sure, but I blame their game design for nurturing seeping animosity!

That the game works or worked at all is/was the great basic idea behind it, all their other design decisions show that they have no clue why veteran players started playing and loving GW.
Nowadays they manage to piss off most of their veterans, PvP and PvE players alike.

Taurucis · May 09, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Two opposing sides will always hate each other... even if it's something trivial they disagree about.

Personally I hate PvP with a fiery passion, I've gotten nothing but grief from it... PvP drama ruins guilds, PvP kidnaps my friends, and PvPers in general just tick me off... but I don't really care, if you like PvP go ahead and play it, just stay out of my face and I'll stay out of yours.

Ctb · May 09, 2008, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Two opposing sides will always hate each other...

Yes, but if ANET had properly anticipated their target audience's desires and built the game appropriately, there wouldn't BE two opposing sides.

Celestial_Kitsune · May 09, 2008, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Some people think there is only one correct way to play the game. If you don't play the game like they do, then you are considered a [insert invective here]. People need to realize that different people play the game for different reasons, and that each population has approximately normal distribution in terms of skill and personality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

The typical PvP player for me would be a person that feels the need to be the best (or at least very good).
The typical PvE player would be someone who plays more for relaxation and less to be the best.
There are some exceptions, specially PvE players who like to be the best in PvE but that cannot really be compared to fighting and winning against human players.
It's like comparing people who play Counter Strike to people playing let's say Sims Online.

Res Ipsi · May 09, 2008, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

PvErs cannot accept the fact that PvP takes more skill, and therefore, call the competitive players "Elitist" to give them a bad image.

And +1.

And I thought this was going to be a rationale, friendly discussion until you decided to insult every PvE'r out there. It certainly doesn't help the image most of us PvE'rs have of PvP. I've done a bit of PvP, with varying amounts of success (HA and GvG). I enjoyed the different play style, but I wouldn't consider one form of playing harder than the other. I've also come to appreciate that most of the better PvP players are nice and friendly folks. It's the ones who think they're great (but aren't) who are the arrogant asshats.

zwei2stein · May 09, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

I am PvE, and i enjoyed what PvP did with game.

Without PvP i would still be running warriors as tank and not damage dealers. And dont get me started about much more interesting (but less obvious) strategies.

PvP slowed item and skill powercreep and allowed me to enjoy tackics based game. It gave us low level cap. It gave us armor and weapons that we use because they look cool not because we have to. It gaves us assuarance that retarted imba stuff would be eradicated asap.

Well, that was 2 years ago.

I dont give crap what PvPers think about PvE, but its PvP mode that made GWs what it was even in PvE.

HawkofStorms · May 09, 2008, 06:51 PM // 18:51

People fear what they do not understand.

skanvak · May 09, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

There is a rift because pvp is not part of the game world. In all other MMORPG pvp is part of the game world.

In GW there is only 2 pvp that are/were part of the world : HoH when it gave the divine favor and AvA. Now there is only AvA. And you can see that there is less inimity in AvA than in any other pvp.

GW pvp is designed like a sport not a war system. You don't pvp because you need (like in a war) but because you want. Or most pve'rs are just peasant (they farm aren't they?) they want a quiet piece of land to harvest from. It is not about skills. Fighting a human is always harder than an AI... except when the AI is set up by a human better than you (see heroes battle or legend). But skill is not the point. The point is that the two world don't share thing in common.

That why all skill in the game must be usable in pvp, because NPC and PC should not be different in front of the game. And, WE ARE ALL PLAYING THE SAME GAME so two set of skill is just meaningless. This will mean that there will be two game, this would be the end of the initial GW. There should be no pvp character that allow people to ignore just a whole aspect of a game.

Why in most game pvp end pve do collaborate. I give an example : you want to do the caravan quest but you know that among the ennemy their is human player wanting to raid the caravan they you will ask pvp'er to come with you.

GW created a rift between the 2 world that lead to clash.

Game that are pure pvp (CS for one) don't have pve side of the game. Why? because gold and xp farming are not what they are looking for. They are looking to imporve they xp not the one of their character (well I begin to thing that xp for character is stupid anyway but that because I am old). Therefore I am not sure such player want a MMORPG. All the RPG aspect is not for them. They are not in character, they are are the character. I mean for them there is no character and player separation, there is only the player. The character is inexistant.

All the RPG aspect is about meking a difference between the xp of the player and the xp of the character. That why having pvp with character of different level, though unfair for people with same skill level, is fundamental to RPG. Otherwise it is not possible to play a good warrior when you are actually a weak warrior (or, for most of us, not a warrior at all).

But why it all failed? because GW end up not being a RPG at all. It became just a puzzled game. But with 2 kind of puzzle, a bit like in chess :
- you can play chess against an oponnent (pvp)
- you can take pre-set problem and try to solve them (pve)

That are nothing to do with RPG. Anet have mix experience point that is something that tell that your ability in game is not link to your personnal skill with an arena battle that just don't need xp but personnal skill? That is the root of the problem.

To sum up :
- Anet misunderstood what a RPG is
- We need a world with pvp/pve related to each other not segregated from each other.
- no differences between pve and pvp.
- if we want a personal skill game, the suppress the xp altogether.

MithranArkanere · May 09, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

There is no PvP vs PvE.
There is a 'Dumb people that favor a side vs dumb people that favor the other".

They are different, you cannot compare them. It's like saying Hot Chocolate vs Coffee. It's all about taste.

VinnyRidira · May 09, 2008, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

There are a lot of things that should not exist but do.

The typical PvP player for me would be a person that feels the need to be the best (or at least very good).
The typical PvE player would be someone who plays more for relaxation and less to be the best.
There are some exceptions, specially PvE players who like to be the best in PvE but that cannot really be compared to fighting and winning against human players.
It's like comparing people who play Counter Strike to people playing let's say Sims Online.

Now with two distinct types of players there will be tension.
That's not good, not bad, just different kind of people.

I find this to be quite insulting, it is a pity you did not start it by saying IMHO or some such.

Kapral · May 09, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by VinnyRidira

I find this to be quite insulting, it is a pity you did not start it by saying IMHO or some such.

How in the hell did you get insulted over that?

Game N Die · May 09, 2008, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

There is no PvP vs PvE.
There is a 'Dumb people that favor a side vs dumb people that favor the other".

They are different, you cannot compare them. It's like saying Hot Chocolate vs Coffee. It's all about taste.

I agree. PvP is more an instant gratification type of format, whereas PvE is more of a slow methodical style of play. Anyone who thinks that they are better than someone else based on anything in a game needs to rethink their perception of reality.

zamial · May 09, 2008, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Thank you all. so far this thread has remained mostly civilized for 30+ posts. I Do understand that there is a rift and 2 different "flavors" as MithranArkanere has said. But is it possible, by player interactions/interventions in and out of the game to become more of a caffe' mocca with marshmallows? I am not saying here that the game needs to be recreated or to create a different game, I am however looking for what we can do as players to bridge the gap.

Longasc · May 09, 2008, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by skanvak

There is a rift because pvp is not part of the game world. In all other MMORPG pvp is part of the game world.

(...)

To sum up :
- Anet misunderstood what a RPG is
- We need a world with pvp/pve related to each other not segregated from each other.
- no differences between pve and pvp.
- if we want a personal skill game, the suppress the xp altogether.

I think you summed it up nicely.

The latest dev update is probably going to increase the gap, read giving skills different effects in PvE.
I hope they design fewer but better skills that are meaningful in either mode, without the constant need of heavy rebalancing over and over in GW2.

I also wonder if they find a way to integrate both kinds of gameplay into the game without pissing off the one or the other side.

randomperson · May 09, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kusandaa

I think average players in both parties simply - in GW in general - lack common sense.

Quoted for emphasis.

Now, I won't say that PvE doesn't take some skill, but for the most part you can be carried by henchmen through whatever you try to do. If you suck and join a group in any PvP format besides RA, AB, or TA where the other team is an RA group, you will get stomped. Bad players can get by in PvE, so they continue to play it, but fail in PvP so generally don't bother. Of course there are still a great many people in PvP who think they are good when they flash the bambi they got from Sway or whatnot... but they will fall flat on their face when they try to play anything other than a button mashing gimmick, so it's alright.

mafia cyborg · May 09, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

I like pvp to fight and compete.
and i like pve to chill, explore the world etc

too bad pve farmers here felt they had to unite against pvp and skill balance.(cos utimately they do not want balance) ruining the game for all.

lots of of the angst of pvp players towards pve ...comes cos of that. they see pvers as the guys who are ruining the game. (cos in pvp skill balance is ALL...while in Pve just an excuse to whine about not bein able to use same old farming build)

Tamuril elansar · May 09, 2008, 10:27 PM // 22:27

pve needs to face it, winning a GvG against a team thats better/as good as yours is MUCH harder than vanquishing or anything else in pve (i've done both).

Monk In The Box · May 09, 2008, 10:37 PM // 22:37

PvE is better than PvP. For example PvE is about 75% of the game and PvE has 3 Continents while PvP has a couple small islands. The majority of titles/items remain in PvE. People should stop saying they are both equal as it is clear that PvE has more "Meat" in game play. I'm not trying to offend anyone or be "That bad guy that dislikes PvP" But in my view PvE is better than PvP.

rohara · May 09, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

it is a stupid, stupid argument tbh. if you don't like pvp/pve...don't play it - there's no reason to go around trashing people who do, no matter which "side" anet seems to favor at any given moment. there's plenty of douchebags on both sides.

i'm in a pvp guild (gvg-focused, play in daily tourneys when we can) yet we play pve plenty too. in fact, we all just made new characters and played through factions for kicks. gve is ftw.